Dear fellow fans...

[mari4212]

Why do I always end up with the batshit shippers in a fandom? Or is it that every ship has batshit people, and I just see the worst in my own ships because that's what I'm exposed to?

I mean, look at Harry Potter. Personally, of the possible trio parings, I honestly prefer Harry/Hermione. I like the dynamics of their relationship, I think they're an interesting fit, and I could easily see their friendship evolve naturally into a love relationship. Am I dissapointed that JKR has a different idea about how it's going to work? Yes. But it doesn't destroy the series for me. I don't take it personally, I just assume she has other ideas about what makes for a good romantic relationship. I'm confrontation-avoidant, so I dislike the bickering and full throttle arguments Ron and Hermione have, but JKR's the one in charge, she gets to make the decision.

That seems to be where I separate from the more militant members of the Harry/Hermione ship. Let's just say, there's a reason I never joined any of the more adamently ship-centric groups when I came into the fandom. They scared me.

And now, there are a few people who are getting just as bad about the new Doctor Who.

Okay, I liked Rose. I really did. She was fun and interesting, she was an excellent companion for the Doctor, and I found her good traits and her flaws to be interesting and compelling. I did really care about her as a person. So I was upset when I found out she was leaving. Trust me, I understand why my fellow shippers are all still so upset about it, and I agree with them. I didn't want her to go either.

I did, however, love her exit from the show. I felt it did a good job of maintaining the important facets of her character, and that it was a good way of having her leave the Doctor after she'd made such a point about wanting to be with him forever. I'd have lost a lot of respect for the writers if they'd had her fall in love with someone or join a cause that would permanently separate her from the Doctor, because they'd already established that that wasn't who she was. I also would have been very depressed if they'd just killed her off to get rid of the character. And so, the compromise in Doomsday worked nicely for me. After all, the one constant in Doctor Who is that no one stays forever. All the companions eventually go away, all the Doctors change. It is built into the plot of the series. Rose couldn't stay forever.

So please, fellow shippers, just because you're upset that Rose is gone, don't go after the new companion. And if I see one more "she looks like a slut/chav" comment because you're upset that Martha is replacing Rose, I'm going to scream. Watch an episode or two, find out what her personality is going to be like before you diss the character. And dear God, whatever you do, don't attack the actress because you don't like the fact that she's playing a new companion. It is her job, she was hired to do this. From the one interview I've seen, she sounds like she's also a fan of Doctor Who. Let's give her a fair chance.

Comments

[sworddancer.livejournal.com]

I actually usually prefer Harry/Hermione as well, if that matters. It boils down to simpler reasons than yours, even: I would ask Hermione out before Ginny. I do read all sorts of things, though.

It does irritate me that someone else (Rowling, that is) has bought into the weird "people fighting = true love" thing I see in anime all the time. : p Oh well.

And I'm just waiting to see the Christmas episode, with Catherine Tate. I'd watched an episode of her show less than a month before watching the Doctor Who finale, so that was interesting timing.

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I'd ask Harry out before I would Ron, and that's part of it as well.

I especially dislike the arguments between Ron and Hermione because they never learn from them, they never compromise. It's just two fundamentally opposed worldviews fighting, and neither will back down or avoid going for the verbal low blows.

There are a few shows where I haven't minded the bickering couple mode, the main one being on Voyager, between Tom and B'Elana, because there, the major fights ended in compromises and they learned not to go for the low blows eventually. They also had a lot in common, once they got past the misapprehensions about each other. But that took work.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with Runaway Bride, it looks like it will be interesting. And that poor woman, running around after the Doctor as he tries to save the day wearing a wedding gown.

[sworddancer.livejournal.com]

I'm sure Tate won't be described as a "poor woman" by anyone. She'll probably end up leading the Doctor around, really.

Yeah -- I can't really empathize well with Ron. Y'know, as the only child, introvert, conflict-avoiding guy, I'm not into the Ron/Hermione thing from several different angles, all at once.

I'm not sure I've ever seen actual fighting turn into what I would describe as a functional, entertaining (fictional) relationship. I didn't watch Voyager, though. I guess Love Hina comes close, though I really think Naru overreacted all the damn time. Hrm.

And you're right, they never figure anything out after fighting. Bleh.

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

Ah, cool. I haven't seen anything of hers that I know of, but she sounds interesting.

Superficially, I've got a few things in common with Ron. Red-headed, second-to-last child in a relatively large family. But when it comes to the important aspects of character, he's diametrically opposed to me on many levels. I don't have much natural empathy for him.

Voyager had its problems with consistency and relationships, but they did a relatively good job creating Tom and B'Elanna. Part of it was that most of their early problems with each other were based on misconceptions of each other, and they gradually learned to trust one another and move past it, so by the time they moved into a romantic relationship they had a solid bedrock of friendship and respect. They still had problems sometimes with knowing when to stop the arguement, but it worked eventually.

[vaudy.livejournal.com]

The hate-at-first-sight, bickering all the time, eventually falling in love relationship is a well-used (overused?) device in fantasy. The worst I ever saw was in Archangel, by Sharon Shinn. Even after the two main characters realized that they were actually in love and had been for the entire book, they still fought like rabid animals and actually lived apart most of the time. Weird.

Anyway, I don't really have a preferred ship, but I personally like the idea of Harry and Hermione remaining platonic, whoever either of them ends up with romantically. I guess I feel that the main character's best opposite-sex friend shouldn't always have to become the love interest. A protagonist having two best friends, one of whom is the opposite sex (and not related) sends a different message than a protagonist having a best friend and a girl/boyfriend, and I think it's a message that's not sent very often, but should be. But that's just me. :)

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

It's been some time since I read Archangel, but as I recall, both those characters were VERY stubborn, so it felt right to me that even after they realized their feelings for each other (And it took them a while to realize/believe their feelings were returned, right?) they would resist it and also that they were both very strong personalities who differed on a lot of huge things so of course there would still be a lot of fighting. And I seem to recall there were some extenuating circumstances affecting a decision to live apart/together later in the book.

[vaudy.livejournal.com]

It's been a while since I read it, too, but yeah, I think it was practically the end of the book when they realized their feelings were mutual. But I remember thinking when I was reading that book that Shinn overdid it a little. They were both strong personalities, and the woman's (don't remember her name) anger, at least was pretty justified, having been ripped from her home and what she thought were her people, but I thought the fighting went a little far, for my taste.

[littlelessevil.livejournal.com]

What is this Dr Who I keep hearing about?

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

Dr. Who is an old British sci-fi that has recently been started up again. It features an alien known only as the Doctor, who travels through space and time in a big blue police public call box that is larger on the inside than on the outside. He saves the world a lot, gets into large amounts of trouble, and every so often he picks up a companion (normally a human woman in her early to mid twenties, there have been exceptions) and travels around with them, showing off what he can do.

One of the interesting twists in the series was that they designed it so that they could lose their lead character without missing a beat. The Doctor's species can regenerate, forming a completely new body with different looks and personality. Currently, we're on the Tenth Doctor.

It's insane fun.

Great lines include:
"I'm the Doctor by the way, what's your name?
"Rose"
"Nice to meet you, Rose, now run for your life!"

DOCTOR
It's mauve.
ROSE
Mauve?
DOCTOR [at the monitor]
The universally recognized colour for danger.
ROSE
What happened to red?
DOCTOR
That's just humans. By everyone else's standards, red's camp. Oh, the misunderstandings. All those red alerts, all that dancing.

"Bananas are good"

"I mean it! I am very, very angry with you. I am very, very cross! Go - to - your - ROOM!
I'm really glad that worked. Those would've been terrible last words."

"Funny little human brains, how do you get around in those things?"

"Who looks at a screwdriver and thinks "oohoo, this could be a little more sonic"?"

[littlelessevil.livejournal.com]

But but.. I want to watch this

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

www.who-transcripts.atspace.com has the transcripts up for all of the first season of the new who, and most of the second.

Several of the second season episodes are up at youtube.com, if you search through, but there doesn't seem to be many of the first season episodes up there.

The dvds of the first season are out here in the US, but they're way too expensive right now. And season two should start airing on the Sci-fi channel at the end of September.

[vaudy.livejournal.com]

I've not watched Dr. Who nearly as much as I should (and I've seen very little of the new series, thanks to not having had cable until moving home recently), so I have to ask, has the Doctor ever been known to have a romantic relationship with a companion, or is that just a fandom thing?

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

Old Who, no, he never really showed much of an interest in sex or a romantic relationship, although there may have been hints with Romana.

New Who, it sort of got built into the storyline. Rose and the Doctor were written to be in love, according to the producer and main writer, Russel T. Davies. It's caused a major schism between many old schoolers, who think the idea of sexualizing the Doctor is deeply wrong, and many new schoolers, who were introduced to the series with this relationship as an example.

Part of what has the shippers so upset is that they're afraid that the Doctor will forget Rose and build the same type of relationship with this new companion, so they see it as a threat to the Doctor/Rose ship.

[vaudy.livejournal.com]

Oh, no, we mustn't offend the old schoolers! I've seen the old school vs. new school battles in other arenas (spinning, of all things), and I think it's ridiculous. The only constant in life is change. What, is the Doctor an android, that he's not allowed to have romantic or sexual feelings, especially for a woman he arguably spends most of his time with?

Obviously I'm not tied to the ship, since I've only seen one episode of the new series, but even if the Doctor does form a relationship with the new companion (people gotta move on), that doesn't necessarily mean he'll forget the old one. It depends on the sensitivity of the writers, really. But I can see why people would be disappointed, because we do tend to get attached to fictional relationships that satisfy us in some way. I just don't understand why people get so militant about it. I think I'm preaching to the choir, though, aren't I?

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

Definitely to the choir, though I don't mind.

I don't want the Doctor to be alone forever, or even for that long. I also don't want him jumping immediately to a new love interest. But if they handle Martha well, I'd actually like it. The man deserves someone, and if he's lost Rose, well, he'll miss her, but he does have to carry on.

Plus, the Doctor has loved other companions, just not in a romantic sense. He moves on after they leave, he can do so here.

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

My instinct is that ALL 'ships have their batshit insane 'shippers. Some have more than others, but spend enough time in any corner of fandom and you'll come across some -- because there are always batshit insane PEOPLE floating around.

And hey, you don't ALWAYS end up with them. I think the Rayne shippers have got that market near cornered in Firefly.

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

Ah good, as long as it isn't just my sections.

I'm still on some level disturbed by Rayne, although part of that is the fact that I look at River and I see my own sister's severe disabilities, and I can't see ever shipping her until they find some way to heal most of the damage that's been caused to her.

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

That's understandable. I don't see River as disabled like your sister is, though. Consent issues are definitely huge because there is so little boundary between her own thoughts/ideas/emotions/feelings and those of anyone who's around her, and she has had some important developmental time stolen from her and has arguably regressed some, but she was 14 when she went to the Academy so even with all her damage I see her as far ahead of your sister and also just differently damaged.

I personally like River/Jayne that's dark and fucked-up (especially with my kink for apparently-vulnerable-young-woman seducing/initiating-with older-man-whom-one-would-expect-would-be-taking-advantage-of-her-but-is-in-fact-reluctant) and while seeing the teddy bear underneath the gruff was what made me finally like Jayne, I really dislike the easy domestication of Jayne that happens in so much of the Rayne fic I saw linked on the_cortex [back when the_cortex first started -- I finally just stopped reading the River/Jayne I saw linked there, and haven't read that pairing in ages now] especially because if you're gonna do that, why have the partner be River at all other than that she's the only one around without any pre-existing canon love interest?

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

True, River's by no stretch of the imagination as badly off as Sara is. There are very few people who are. And if the writers can present a River who is aware of what she wants as it differs from what others around her are thinking and wanting, I'll buy it.

I'm not as into the dark fucked-up stories as you are, but I also don't like it when everything turns into the land of fluffy bunnies once two people are in a relationship. Especially because Jayne and River are not fluffy-bunny people by anyone's standards.

[deludedvision.livejournal.com]

Disappointed as I am over Rose's departure (and as much fan fic as I have read, will read, and might possibly write) to mend this grievous error (;D), I have nothing against Martha. In fact, I have that nagging feeling I'll end up loving her. Will I like her as much as Rose? No. But I suspect she'll be fun in her own ways. As long as the series handles the transition well - and as long as we aren't fed any blatantly obvious Doctor/Martha hints - I won't have any more issues than I already do. I'm sad about Rose. I will be sad about Rose.

But the people attacking Martha? I mean, come on? Seriously. Idiots.

*pats back*

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I mean, I miss Rose a lot too. Heck, I cried watching Doomsday. And I don't think I'll have quite the same attachment to Martha as I did Rose. But I'm at least going to give her a chance first.

I'm avoiding the whole issue of Rose's leaving by not writing anything post-Doomsday for now. My personal favorite fix-it is that there is a Doctor and a TARDIS in the other universe, and that she'll find him and go off on new adventures with him.

Dr. Who?

[elvisvf101.livejournal.com]

I will likely rent Season 1 of Dr. Who from Netflix at some point this month, at which time I may interject thoughts and feelings on this major casting change (and I'll be able to read all your wonderful fic with SOME frame of reference).

To distract myself from being alone in the office on a Friday, I guess I'll discuss the Potterverse and Shipping (you twisted my arm, really).

I don't really have a ship I don't think. I tend to go with whatever is cannon, or what I see in cannon. So, in Firefly, I was Kaylie/Simon and Mal/Inara because, well, it seemed like the writers were, and I tended to like the other things the writers were doing.

In the Potterverse, I tended to see Ron/Hermione in the first few books. The reason I saw Ron/Hermione WAS because of the bickering. I know that some people don't care for the love/hate thing, and really, through book 6, the characters have done some really stupid and childish things, BUT, they are teenagers. From my memory, this is what we all used to do to each other when we were 11-17. Little boys chase little girls, and girls say boys are mean and stupid. So, that was my reason for seeing the ship. I have no qualms with Harry/Hermione. They are probably compatible, but I just never saw Harry having feelings for Hermione (for that matter, I don't think I ever saw him having feelings for Ginny before book 6, but then, Harry is a tough guy to read). But, I do like Harry/Ginny because it fits the famed OBHWFT or One Big Happy Weasley Family Theory. That's a concept I can get behind, summer forever.

The ship wars were very strange. I observed from a distance and thought to myself, man, I'd hate to be in the middle of that. Honestly, people boycotting the books because teenage romance didn't meet their expectations? Were you reading the books only for the ships? If so, my apologies, you missed some great stuff.

Love/Lust/Liking is fickle, and true love doesn't always play out well on screen or paper, so flawed relationships tend to win out over what people would think is real and true. Because, to me anyway, true love is boring. After all, it's day in, day out, unchanging, never ending. That's rather monotonous (as Lewis so famously and wonderfully described God's love). So, we tend to see fireworks and the like in writen and acted ships.

Can't well just have some harmony...err...scratch that, that might set off some new battles in the Shipping Wars...

Twist your arm? Sure.

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

My only real problem with Ron/Hermione as a ship is that I don't see a real strong respect for the other person, especially when they fight. I'll accept bickering, but if you want to make the bickering relationship work, you have to show some ability to compromise and reach agreement, and you have to show that the respect for the other person is strongly felt underneath. Right now, to me at least, it feels like Ron and Hermione like each other, but they don't understand the other person. But that is my interpretation and if you enjoy Ron/Hermione, more power to you.

There's some truth to the idea that perfect understanding and perfect harmony would be very boring, but I don't think any relationship in HP would be "perfect" outside of bad fanfic. Heck, I don't see "perfect" relationships anywhere in real life either. Love is hard work and even if you love someone, you don't always agree with them or even like them that much at times.

Oh, and you really do need to see Doctor Who. It is that good.

Re: Twist your arm? Sure.

[vaudy.livejournal.com]

They don't seem to understand each other, true, but I think the main reason they fight endlessly is that neither one is willing to make the first step in admitting to liking the other. They won't understand each other unless and until they are honest with one another, and right now they aren't being honest, they're being petty, jealous, and childish. Both of them.

[ljmckay.livejournal.com]

Well, on the plus side, McKay/Weir doesn't seem to attract the most militant of shippers...though I haven't really been deeply immersed in the fandom, so maybe I just missed them.

I'd heard rumors of the casting change and it made me sad, but I don't really have an issue with it. Things happen. Haven't read the transcript yet, but from what you say, that should make my outlook even better.

I was really excited to hear about season 2 coming to Sci-Fi, though!! YAY!

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

True, McKay/Weir is still safe, primarily because it's still small and the major ship wars seem to be between Sheppard/Weir and Sheppard/Teyla. Since I don't ship him with anybody, I don't care about that.

I was upset about Rose leaving, but I really do think they made the best choice for her character. Having her up and leave, after everything she's said, wouldn't make sense, but just flat out killing her would have been awful to deal with.

And I am so psyched to see season two come to Sci-fi. It'll be nice to catch it all.

[nightfalltwen.livejournal.com]

I ship H/Hr but I don't call myself a "Harmonian" ... It wasn't even until I got into fandom that I realised that people thought Ron and Hermione would get together.

People were all "ZOMG R/HR" and I was baffled... I literally saw NO EVIDENCE toward it when I first read the books. Ron has no respect for Hermione imho... and I never even really got that this was tantamount to a crush. Mostly because Ron reminded me of every single highschool boy that I had gone to school with (and hated). Harry reminded me of the one boy I liked (and eventually dated).

H/G baffles me just as much. And the whole "everyone is a weasley in the end" thing kind of makes me go "BZUH??!"

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

I could see hints of it, if you like that relationship dynamic, but I prefered Harry/Hermione, especially after book five.

The one big happy Weasley family, I think, represents total acceptance into the Wizarding World for Harry and Hermione, which is probably why some people really like it.

[nightfalltwen.livejournal.com]

It's strange... I never saw Harry or Hermione as not being accepted into the Wizarding World... mostly because the only people who seemed to have a a problem were the ones who were "typically bad" and I never payed much attention to the opinions of Malfoys et al.

We are the Weasleys, you will be assimilated...

[elvisvf101.livejournal.com]

Our lovely discussion leader has certainly gotten the ball rolling.

Yes, part of the reason the One Big Happy Weasley Family is appealing is that it is acceptance. Fans of it would argue that it's more than just acceptance into the Wizarding World.

To me, part of the appeal of Harry Potter is that our hero is someone you sympathize with. Aside from being "The Chosen One," he is also an orphan who has suffered abuse, and yet retains his ability to love and make friends. What he sees in the Mirror of Erised at 11 years old, when most little boys would probably see chocolate, new toys and days without school, is a family. To me, fairy tales should be stories that show just how much people always act the same, even if the circumstances are a bit bizzare. Our little orphan, even though he's a wizard, wants love. He wants connections. He wants a family.

The Weasleys are your classic "put the fun in dysfunctional" big crazy family. As I have stated a few places, one of my favorite moments from the books is when Bill and Molly come see Harry on Champion Family Day in GoF. The affection Harry receives from the Weasley family is unexpected and freely given. Even though they struggle to make ends meet and their house is filled to the brim, they gladly take Harry in. And they take Hermione in to a lesser extent. Harry and Hermione are only children, and the Weasleys become a sort of surrogate family, giving them experiences with (...the phone has just rang, I have to pick up my sister, I'll continue this rant later. Cheers!)

Re: We are the Weasleys, you will be assimilated...

[nightfalltwen.livejournal.com]

I've just never found the OBHWF theory all that appealing. Even with long explanations and justifications from those who do like it.

*shrug*

I'm not particularly fond of the Weasley family as a whole.

Re: We are the Weasleys, you will be assimilated...

[elvisvf101.livejournal.com]

I believe you have identified the crux of the issue for most people.

People's opinion of Ron and/or the Weasley family tend to shape which "side" of the issues people fall on. If you like Ron and/or the Weasleys, you'll be R/Hr, H/G and OBHWF. If you don't like Ron and the Weasleys, you'll tend to be H/Hr.

There are plenty of reasons to love or hate Ron and the Weasleys, most of which have probably been hashed out by smarter people than me, so I'll leave that alone.

Obviously, this is a generalization, but in my experiences talking with people who are serious about ship, their view of redheads shape their views on life.

Since we are all friends of Mari's, I think it's probably safe to say, we have some fondness for redheads.

Re: We are the Weasleys, you will be assimilated...

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

So the only options are intra-Trio shipping (with the now-canon Harry/Ginny by extension)?

On the whole in HP I'm more interested in the female characters than in the male characters, so in that fandom I tend to gravitate toward f/f and non-shippy fics.

Re: We are the Weasleys, you will be assimilated...

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

I don't think elvisvf101 meant to imply that intra-trio ships were the only options, but that when we are discussing R/Hr and H/Hr, where people stand on Ron plays a major role in which of those two ships they prefer.

Re: We are the Weasleys, you will be assimilated...

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

Ah, gotcha. Since I don't usually spend time in those discussions I read the "If you like Ron and/or the Weasleys, you'll be R/Hr, H/G and OBHWF. If you don't like Ron and the Weasleys, you'll tend to be H/Hr." as a general statement and thought, "Well, I'm mostly not interested in the Weasleys and certainly not in Ron, but there are plenty of other ship options for Hermione (and the rest of the Trio)." But it does make sense that s/he would have been talking about the two sides people come down on in the specific 'ship debate you all were discussing in this entry. Apologies for misunderstanding, and elvisvf101's idea does make a lot of sense in the context of that specific debate.

[elvisvf101.livejournal.com]

Things that happen when you sleep in on Satudays:

1. Mari makes your apologies and clarifications for you...

Hmm, maybe I should sleep in more often...

Yes, as Mari stated, in the specific debate between H/Hr and R/Hr, which seemed to be the most batshit argument of the shipping wars, the stance on Ron seemed to me to be the deciding factor. In addition, people's feelings on H/G seemed to be based very much on whether or not they were R/Hr or not. My apologies for not making that clear.

You are very fortunate to have avoided the Shipping Wank. It was very strange stuff. But, I think several spoofs, lampoons and parodies have been done which might be worth a laugh.