(no subject)

[mari4212]

It always amazes me how loaded with meaning some words are.

Right now, the one that strikes me is religion. It seems like in the past few weeks I've heard it referenced with about ten different shades of interpetation.

For some people, religion means safety, comfort, joy. For others, it's a rigid set of guidelines that determines who is good or bad. I've heard it mentioned as being a way to experience the divine, but just as often I've heard people say that while they're spiritual, they can't do religion for various reasons. I've seen religon used both as a reason to include others, and as an excuse to exclude others.

If you've been reading my journal for a while, you probably have at least a bit of an idea where I stand on religion. I've been lucky, most of the associations I have with both the church and my religion in general have been very positive. I have had phenominal priests for most of my life, and my Sunday School teachers were the kind who wanted us to learn and grow and figure out what we believed ourselves, regardless of what the church's official stance on the matter was. A few years ago, when our church elected an openly gay bishop, my senior high class spent a year going through biblical sexual morality, seeing for ourselves what was there and how much of it made sense for today's society. Religion for me has positive connotations, it stands for me as a framework for building my life around and a challenge to be a better person than I am now.

If any of you guys feel comfortable discussing it, I'd love to hear your perspective on religion, positive or negative.

Comments

[snarkybando.livejournal.com]

I was unfortunate in that I've never expirenced religion -- we celebrated holidays, but my parents are agnostic and the first time I stepped into anyone's house of worship was sophomore year of high school when a friend brought me to their church, and I've never been to temple.

So I guess I'm neutral? I have friends who are the children of ministers and missionaries, and friends that practice extremely strict denominations of Christianity/Judiasm. I've met absolutely wonderful international students from the middle east who are serious practicing Muslims. Belief systems are just another form of metaphysics, after all.

So long as you do not try and convert me, or critisize me or my friends based on your views, I'm totally fine with any religion. Cross that line, and I will be very, very angry.

Sorry for the long comment . . .

[patagonian.livejournal.com]

I was raised Catholic and we went to church nearly every Sunday of my growing up. And I hated it. All I really associate my early church going with is extreme boredom. Both my brother and I would stay in bed on Sundays long after we'd woken up, in the hopes that our parents wouldn't want to wake us up and make us go to church.

I never knew why they did what they did at church and my priest was ridiculously verbose and convoluted. Even when I tried to follow his train of thought when I was high school age, I had no idea what he was talking about. He mixed up his language so much that it was difficult to understand anything the man said.

As for catechism classes, my elementary years were really difficult (made fun of a lot - I absolutely dreaded it) and my middle and high school years were spent arguing. It's like I wanted to experience the divine, I wanted to believe in God, but church just made me angry. I didn't want to get confirmed, but I had to. I kept hoping for that understanding, that connection, but I never felt it. Every step in catechism was a disappointment - my questions were deflected, I felt I wasn't being taken seriously and at my confirmation, the bishop only talked about how we should seriously consider the church as our calling.

In college, I never went to church except when I visited my parents for holidays. A couple of times I almost had a panic attack from being at a Christmas or Easter service and knowing that I didn't belong there, and shouldn't be there.

I live with my parents again, and they still go to church every Sunday, but I don't go with them. I know it hurts my Dad a lot, but being in church really freaks me out - I feel very insincere when I'm there as I don't believe what the church believes. This is one of the few arguements I've ever had with my Dad.

As for what I believe now, I really don't know. I'm 28 and I'm not nearly as angry about church/religion as I used to be, but I'm also very sceptical. I read a great deal of academic and comparative religious texts, maybe to understand, I don't know. But my relationship with church, religion and God is one of the most confusing in my life, and I'm guessing it will be that way for a very long time. I'll always be Catholic in a way, because that's the way I was raised and it was definitely formative for me. I also have a tendency to defend the Catholic Church against naysayers, except when they do stupid things like deny that abuse has taken place.

Re: Sorry for the long comment . . .

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

As an Episcopalian born in the past thirty years, the concept of being forced to get confirmed seems rather counterintuitive. The idea behind the Sacrament of Confirmation is that you personally have chosen to join the church as an adult. It cheapens the meaning of the sacrament to force someone into it.

Sorry, I'll get off of my soapbox about that. But it's interesting to hear your perspective, even if I wish your experiences with the Catholic Church had not been so negative.

Re: Sorry for the long comment . . .

[patagonian.livejournal.com]

It cheapens the meaning of the sacrament to force someone into it.

That was my thought as well. But I really think that had I been given free reign that I would have gotten myself confirmed anyway. I really wanted to feel the Divine, I just didn't.

And I wouldn't say that my experiences with the Catholic Church were all over bad. I kinda was determined to make it bad. Does that make sense? Rather than sneaking out or drinking or whatever, I guess religion was my rebellion.

Re: Sorry for the long comment . . .

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

I kinda was determined to make it bad. Does that make sense?

It actually really does. As with anything, how you decide to interact with it determines at least in part what you're going to get from it.

And with God/the Divine, at least for me it doesn't happen when I schedule it or want it, but when God wants it to happen. If you have a moment when you really feel the Divine and connect, it'll probably be when you least expect it and aren't looking for it.

And hey, I'm a product of Catholic schools, so I've seen both a lot of good things about the Roman Catholic church, and some not-so-good things. It's not the church I feel spiritually at home in, but I've seen it do a lot of good for others.

Re: Sorry for the long comment . . .

[patagonian.livejournal.com]

If you have a moment when you really feel the Divine and connect, it'll probably be when you least expect it and aren't looking for it.

That's kind of funny, the one place I would say I felt the Divine was in St Peter's in Rome at the Vatican. I was just there as a tourist, but, well it's hard to explain, but it was awesome.

[cat-mcdougall.livejournal.com]

I was raised in a church (Methodist to be exact). My (paternal)grandmother was a practicing Catholic, and her husband was Methodist --don't ask how they got along, the only thing they ever agreed on was religion.

My father's a minister though, so it might colour my opinions. I, personally, will probably never step into another church unless it is a historical site and I want to have a look around.

My mother --moreso than my father, though he was guilty of it as well-- is one of the ones who uses religion as a weapon. And by weapon, I mean against anyone that she feels has "sinned". Including her youngest daughter (ie, HI! It's me.).

Then, I tried one of the local Nazarene churches. It... Well, they are definitely more of the 'well-to-do' set, and anyone who isn't isn't exactly turned away, but they certainly make you feel uncomfortable.

I have been to services with my brother-in-law's aunt (Episcopalian -sp?). And the priest was very nice, and didn't speak down to anyone, but they were all very touchy feely, and well... I'm not, and can't really stand being touched by strangers, so it really didn't work for me.

I remember, when I was younger, going to Catholic mass with my grandmother, but when I went back as an adult, I couldn't focus on the service and was more caught up in memories, than anything else.

And I think that's about it for the churches/services I've been to. None of them work for me, though that might be partly due to my sociophobia. I just always feel out of place, and can't seem to 'fit'. So, I do my own thing and it hasn't gotten me struck by lightning or smited yet....

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

Religion as a weapon is one of my biggest pet peeves.

Speaking as an Episcopalian, yeah, we're all either somewhat standoffish (if the church is more traditional/conservative) or incredibly sociable (more liberal end of the spectrum) with not much in between.

I have a feeling God has a healthy sense of humor about things, so I don't think you're at any real risk of being smited any time soon. Not that there aren't people I wish God would get around to smiting somewhere in the near future...

[doylefan22.livejournal.com]

I certainly have faith and beliefs but I am not a fan of organised religion. Having studied the history of the church in the UK, the previous corruption of the Catholic church makes me very uncomfortable. It goes back even further before that - there have been reports of fragments of very old religious texts found that differ from what we have today, the implications being that they were altered because they didn't fit the culture or social structure of the time. Because of this, organised religion makes me really uncomfortable.

I do know a fair amount about other religions and I have studied religious philosophy. They're both interesting and a big eye opener.

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

I'm always torn about that. Because at least for me, from the Christian tradition, I've been taught that religion is communal, that my religion is about my relationship with God and others.

However, I've also seen how the church as an institution messes up. It's definitely not perfect or inerrant, and some of the worst things that have been done by the church as an institution have been done when the church was deemed to be perfect/completely right.

All religious communities, no matter how organized they are, have positive and negative aspects. It's just a matter of determining which is more important to you, the good or the bad. And that has to be a personal choice.

[pirish.livejournal.com]

I was raised in a strict Southern Baptist church. Up until high school, I went every Sunday because that's what I was supposed to do. Go to school, follow what they say, live by the bible, and go to heaven when I died...maybe.

Upon entering high school, I started to branch off from the beliefs of my parents and I stopped going to church almost completely. I couldn't stand how women had to wear dresses, women weren't supposed to speak up against men, television and radio were evil, that anything not in the bible (ie: any sort of science) was saying that the bible wasn't true and that you would go to hell for believing it, and not reading a certain bible because there was a lesbian on the board of whoever made it.

Now for college. I've branched off from my parents and family like never before. A lot of my beliefs contradict the "traditional" church now. The separation has gotten so bad that I feel uncomfortable around much of my family now and can't even sit in the same room because I know any conversation will just end up in a fight. It's not that I'm not religious (in fact, I'm really wanting to find a good progressive church here in Evansville), it's that I just can't deal with the close-mindedness of some people and their naive view of life because they base all of life on a book that they blindly believe and misinterpret all over the place.

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

On finding a progressive church in Evansville, have you checked out The Center for Progressive Christianity's website? (http://www.tcpc.org/) It's an international movement within the Christian church, and people can join it both as individuals and as churches. If a church has people who are members of that community, they're more likely to be progressive or progressive friendly than not.

I was always taught to use what we called "the three-legged stool" when I was thinking about what I believed theologically. The first leg is Scripture as it has been handed down through the centuries. The second is Tradition, how has the scripture been interpreted through those centuries, and the third is Reason, what do I, with my knowledge about the world and about what the scripture was reacting to in its time, understand to be important. Like I said, I was taught to think and question, and only then accept something as what I believe.

[cornelis.livejournal.com]

I was extremely religious as a small child. There was a God, who was the really nice person who made me and the world and who I wanted to be friends with. I attended sunday school at several christian churches, all without paying any attention to denomiations. I'd just go along with whoever offered to take me.

Public school broke me out of this. I started school and was suddenly surrounded by kids who were steeped in their parents' beliefs, and who were at great pains to tell me my beliefs were heretical and I was going to hell (kindergardeners, remember). I refused to keep my mouth shut and things got progressively worse. Largely in a reaction to this I became an unpleasently millitant athiest (I'm still rather embarrassed about this).

Eventually I got curious again and started reading about wicca and eastern philosophies. My father and his second wife were both very involved in their Wiccan church and took me to circles (services) and provided reading material. Prior to a nasty schism, that was the closest I've ever come to joining an official religious group.

I accompained friends to their services, mostly Methodist and Baptist. One was responsible for setting up the youth group's alter every week and I would help her with that, all the while quizzing her on the symbology of the candles and such mysteries as Palm Friday.

The word religion I tend to equate with personal spiritually and ideology. Organized religion/The Church usually makes me wary; I've had a lot of unpleasent experiences (having sweet old ladies tell me I'm evil still disturbs me somewhat), that aside the inevitible politics involved in something so closely tied to people's emotional wellbeing frightens me.

Religion on a personal scale is often uplifting and healing. I still retain a lot of dread over the intitution, though.

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

In kindergarten there were kids who said you were going to hell? Dear God, what the heck were their parents teaching them?

I don't understand telling someone that they're evil for not believing in exactly what you do. It goes against everything Christianity is supposed to stand for. Christianity is supposed to be about building community and bringing people closer to the Divine, not about tearing others down.

[alphamatrix.livejournal.com]

The first time I went to church and was old enough to understand the sermon was when I was about 14, and by that time had "converted" (read: chosen) to Wicca.
Mum never really took us to church as she was uncomfortable with large crowds, the hand shaking/touching strangers, and (I think) some of the sermons. But she was (and still is) a Roman Catholic, she just doesn't feel the need to go to church to be one.
The feeling I got? I liked the parts after the service, catching up with family firneds, and the archuitecture of the church. the sermon, however, just seemed to be telling me that my "differences" were going to condemn me to hell. I don't have anything against Catholics, but boy did I feel uncomfortable.

[cornelis.livejournal.com]

Religious tolerance is not something you get a lot of in Alabama. Sometimes the best you can hope for is that they'll turn a blind eye.

Christianity itself is a very beautiful religion, but it never even occured to me to seperate it from the fanatics until I started hanging around Christian Wiccans (a fairly common combination).

[xdreamsofdramax.livejournal.com]

I think that religion and spirituality are lovely things. They can be a great comfort to people in times of need, etc.

That being said, I was raised in a strict Catholic household. Mom was Baptist, dad was Catholic. I didn't even know mom wasn't Catholic till after I was confirmed. I was taught in a Catholic school and went to a Catholic church EVERY sunday. God and I were good friends. I thought it was great. I was the girl who was in three youth groups because that was her favorite activity; I was the girl who got upset when her family made her late to church choir practice. Yeah, I was even the girl who took time off of work to go on the retreats all summer long. I loved it all...but only because it was all I knew.

Were there every points when I questionned it in high school? Yeah, there definitely were. But I always went back to my comfort zone of Catholicism, not because it was right, but because I'd had it all so drilled into my head that it was right. To the point where I had been told everyone who wasn't Catholic was going to hell. My grandparents were going to hell. Once I knew mom wasn't Catholic, she was going to hell. My friends were all going to hell. And you know what? I was brainwashed to actually believe all of this.

Finally I left home for college. I was so upset that I wasn't going to a Catholic college. I was determined to hate public college. Well, I got there for orientation and got the most massive culture shock of my life. They were telling us all about how to use condoms and how great they were and everything and I was like OMG! (I was the girl who was so sheltered she didn't even know they existed prior to orientation). So now I was determined even more that I was going to hate it.

Well turns out I didn't hate it so much. I met lots of great people who have other belief systems, and being out of my house allowed me to really think about them and make my own choices about my beliefs and not what they church says. I realized that my whole life I've done exactly what the church told me, believed exactly what the church told me. I didn't have to understand anything, I just had to know it was true becuase the church said so. I never really thought for myself. And really, that was a shame.

So I started thinking things over and realized that I don't agree with a lot of what the Church says. I've been to Catholic Mass with my family since then, but I don't go on my own. I'd rather not attend church because it feels like a lie for me to go when I don't agree with the way things are done at all in our church. Personally I feel much more comfortable being spiritual and religious on my own and not being part of an organized religion, because I know it allows me to think for myself.

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

Hey, I was one of the kids who thought that church was an insanely fun places to be too. Just, not the Catholic church.

I have to say, I still don't understand telling people that they're going to hell if they don't believe exactly what you do. I understand that that was what was drilled into you, I just don't understand the mentality. I have had someone tell me that I would never be let into heaven but might get into Purgatory because I wasn't Catholic, I assume that is the same basic mentality.

I'm glad you're thinking things through and deciding what you believe on your own now, it sounds like it was something you really needed.

[xdreamsofdramax.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it definitely was good for me to get out of my sheltered little world and see things for myself instead of for how I was told things should be my whole life.

I don't really get the whole everyone else is going to hell thing anymore either. I just don't see god as someone who will condemn everyone to hell because they didn't quite get it right. Somedays I want to walk up to the people who drilled that into my head and go are you perfect? do you believe EVERY little thing the church tells you you should? Have you EVER comitted a sin you didn't confess? OOOOOH! Well then you're going to hell according to YOUR theory. But according to mine, you could still go to heaven. Whose do you like better NOW? I just think it would be interesting to see their reactions to that. Cuz I know they couldn't honestly tell me they're perfect and have never done anything wrong.

I don't know, people who are still in the same church I grew up in think I'm an awful person for thinking some of the things I do...and maybe I am a little off base at times. But really, I think using my own judgement is probably getting me closer to the mark than the way I was raised. I don't think religion can really BE such a strict thing. It's supposed to be about a personal relationship between a god or gods(depending on a person's belief on one or many) and the individual. I mean, I have no problem with there being a community. I just have a problem with there being so many strict rules and regulations and thoughts that nobody is allowed to have a personal relationship with god. I'd much rather have the personal aspect and lose the community aspect than have the community and lose the personal relationship. And to me, it seems like every day my church gets further away from the personal relationship part of religion.

[smammers.livejournal.com]

Religion, to me, is what you make of it. I've seen it work as a source of community and comfort, and I've seen it used as a tool to make one feel superior and to condemn others.

I was raised strictly Roman Catholic, but chose to leave the church when it came time for Confirmation. I knew I didn't want to commit to the Church by then. I don't think religion or even the Roman Catholic Church itself is necessarily bad; it all depends on how individuals choose to use it.

[ljmckay.livejournal.com]

Interesting question. I've often struggled with the word religion (and religious), actually. Sometimes I think that the connotation is too negative, so I want to use a word more like "faith", "spiritual", etc. And then I think, why should I let other peoples' definitions influence the words I use? So I go back and forth on that, but that's not really important.

Religion itself, though...well, I guess you could say I have a pretty positive outlook on it. I grew up nondenominational Protestant and went to a private Christian school for the first eight years of my schooling (or is it nine?...til eighth grade, anyway). I went to church every week but didn't feel like I was being forced; in fact, when my sister went through her "rebellious" phase, my parents told her she was old enough to choose not to go to church with us if she so desired. That probably had a bigger impact on me than I realized.

When I started in public high school, it was a shock. Not as much of a shock as it could have been, since we were in Texas and the Bible Belt, but it was still something very new. I was scared, frankly, by how much my peers swore and smoked and had sex and all that. I wasn't challenged in my faith, though, at least not directly, until my sophomore year when I had an atheist/agnostic teacher. He scared me, too, but I didn't question my faith.

I've really never had a real questioning/challenging period. I grew up with my faith and though it's "what I've always done" I don't think it's any less for that. I feel like I own my faith; it's not just my parents'. I've only recently been baptized, after a particularly spiritual experience last Easter. I've never felt any sort of pressure to be or do any one thing.

I suppose my faith has a strong bearing on my conservativism, but I won't go into that here. ;)

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the word's got some...interesting connotations for a lot of people.

I know what you mean. There was never any one point where I conciously chose to be Christian or to believe what I do, it's as natural to me as breathing. I've thought about what I believe and why, but I've never questioned actually believing the central concepts of Christianity.

You know you're always welcome to discuss your conservative beliefs with me. I might be more liberal, but I still respect you and what you believe. I know you've thought about it and I trust you to act with justice and compassion.

And hey, how could I ask you to respect me and my conclusions if I don't respect yours?

[seraphtrevs.livejournal.com]

I have a lot of negative connotationswith religion, which is something I know I need to work on. I was born and raised atheist. My dad is virulently atheist, mostly due to growing up in a very dysfunctional family that happened to also be Southern Baptist. His brother, who went to the opposite extreme, became a missionary and was kinda dead to my dad for a while (my uncle is a serious jerk though - he won't let his wife go grocery shopping, because women don't know how to spend money, and once when my mom wanted to buy his daughter a bathing suit for her birthday, she and her mother had to call him while in the store, describe each bathing suit as she tried it on so he could determine what was appropriate. O_o)

My mom, also born and raised atheist like me and my siblings, is much cooler about it - she has the philosophy of "Hey, whatever works for you, it's all good." We celebrate Christmas and such, but as a cultural holiday rather than a religious one (they used to sometimes call Christmas "Atheist Children Get Presents Day." : P)

But that isn't what really made me freak out about religion. I've had a lot of negative attempted conversion experiences (heh, probably because I'm pretty vocal about my belief system). Example: I had a boy in high school who was in luuuuurve with me and he was an Evangelical Christian of one sort or another, and he used to literally follow me around trying to convert me, because he was so sad that I was definitely going directly to hell unless I changed my heathen ways, etc.

I do recognize, however, that I fixate on extremists - things like people who want prayer in school, denying evolution, believing that anyone who doesn't agree with their very specific brand of Christianity deserves to be tortured for all eternity, gay people are an abomination, etc. And I really need to learn to let that go. I've known a lot of very cool Christians. For example, one of my best college buddies was about as religious as they come (he was born in Albania and was in training to be a Greek Orthodox monk before he moved to America!) He knew about my beliefs, and we just agreed to disagree.

Actually, I believe that the brand of Christianity you describe is actually what Jesus had in mind, and it's a belief system that is that I could really get behind (er, not in terms of converting, but in terms of agreeing with its moral system). I've read the Bible and other religious texts because I really want to understand, but I think that I'm just never going to really get it. I do, however, believe that it's a great thing for a lot of people and can be a very positive force - just because I don't understand doesn't mean it's any less valid.

So in conclusion (finally : P), I can get quite ranty and wanky on the subject, and I need to be a bit more chill about it. Then again, that's true for a lot of subjects with me - I tend to be a bit of a pessimist.

[cheshire23.livejournal.com]

Wow, I don't know how I missed this post. :)

I was raised sort-of Catholic. That is to say, my parents were both raised Catholic and were semi-practicing. I found the ritual of the Church comforting and was often the one dragging my parents there. Then I got older and more politically aware and less comfortable with it. I also went away to school and met a Wiccan, and found her beliefs very interesting, and became more interested in the various Neopagan faiths.

My core group of friends in undergrad were quite the eclectic mix - one was an incredibly observant Baha'i, three were Jewish, one was a Quaker, and most of the others had grown up Catholic even if they were not currently practicing. Religion and faith were pretty constant topics of conversation for us.

After graduation, I briefly was the co-leader of an ADF protogrove, which was a rather strange experience - it left me with stronger faith but really disillusioned about the entire concept of religion, until my now-husband persuaded me to give the local Unitarian Universalist church a try.

It was exactly what I'd been looking for all along.