(no subject)

[mari4212]

Why do frat boys have to exist?

Okay, not all of them, just the ones that think it's great fun to sing songs of loyalty to their fraternity outside my dorm at the top of their lungs. At three in the morning. The day I have an eight am test.

Speaking of that test, I think I did well on it. Our teacher learned from last time and shortened this test, and there weren't any questions that I had no clue how to answer. Considering I managed to get a B on that test once she curved to account for the missing questions, I'm rather optimistic about this one.

As I was getting ready for bed last night, I kept thinking about hero archetypes and which kinds I like and dislike.

Generalizing a bit here, I tend to notice three main types, with assorted hybrids between each.

The first one is the naive hero. The hero picked up from obscurity and sent out to save the day, a la the Joseph Campbell hero story. They tend to start out innocent, optimistic, and idealistic. How they end up is more variable, but they tend to return to where they came from, older and wiser, having fulfilled their destiny. I'd say that Luke Skywalker, Frodo, and possibly Harry are good examples of this archetype. I really have no strong opinions on these guys, good or ill, but they tend to not be the ones that draw my attention.

The next is the rebel. In my experience, he tends to be a bit more cocky, a bit worldly and rough around the edges. He doesn't conform, he doesn't do well with any authority figures, and he tends to be a bit more cynical. At the end of the story he tends to be the one who mellows, who finds an ideal or a group that appeals to him and works for that. Examples would be characters like Han Solo or Mal Reynolds. Of the three archetypes, this is the one that most consistantly annoys me. I almost never empathize with heroes of this nature, and I tend to lose interest in them easily.

The third is what I tend to call the dutiful soldier, although there are characters that fit this archetype who aren't soldiers. He's also more experienced than the naive hero, but not as cynical or cocky. He tends to be the one who knows what he's getting into, or thinks he does, but does it even knowing the consequences because it needs to be done. Examples would include characters like Obi-Wan Kenobi or Faramir. And as you've probably guessed, this is the archetype that most consistantly appeals to me.

Thoughts, comments, disagreements, random death threats?

Comments

[breathingbooks.livejournal.com]

Interesting theory about hero archetypes. My list is nothing like yours - I Love the rebel/anti-hero so long as they don't become too good in the end (and basically cease to rebel at all, thus erasing the interesting part of their character to make them conform), I find the dutiful soldier interesting, and more and more I tend to avoid the naive hero, probably because there's only so many ways you can acquire knowledge and there's generally less internal conflict. Oh, I shall do good. Oh dear, something bad has happened. I must find another way to do good! There's tension between ideals and reality with the dutiful soldier and there's a different kind of conflict with the rebel.

[ljmckay.livejournal.com]

Wow, that's a great analysis! I tend to agree with you, except that I'm probably slightly more sympathetic to the rebel and occasionally annoyed by the naive hero (though at the same time, I can't help but love them to bits).

Interesting insights. :D

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

Glad you liked!

I'd enjoy the Rebel archetype more if the characters that fit it weren't always so cocky. It's an instant turn-off for me.

[pikacharma.livejournal.com]

Those frat boys sound like total amateurs. Didn't anyone ever tell them REAL men sing songs of loyalty to beer, sex, and masturbation, not stupid clubs?!

And oooohhh, archetypes! I did my undergrad in sociology and this was one of the things I massively, massively loved studying and just sort of playing around with.

I always sort of pegged Obi-Wan as more of the mysterious teacher sort than a hero offshoot, but then again, that totally depends on which triology we're talking about, and I also tend to relate to the rebels, so my POV could be massively skewed. XP

Seriously, this is an awesome breakdown. Only other category of hero I can think of is maybe some sort of "ambiguous" hero for lack of a better word. Someone who does the right thing for the wrong reason, or saves the day by accident, or saves the day but we never really DO find out his true motivations. This one might also cover the "surprise" hero, ie, someone who starts out as a villain but then saves the day at the last second. Or would these guys fall into one of your main three categories depending on what sort of motivations they seem to have?

Okay, now you've got me thinking about intellectual, academic things, and that's always a recipe for disaster. XP

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

But you doing the intellectual thinky thing is fun! Almost as much fun as you on crack.

I was more focusing on the straight heroes rather than the ambiguous figures, though that is a good point. In general, I'd think they'd tend to fall in with the Rebel archetype, but there'd be some that wouldn't fit well. I think they'd be the ones that you could argue about where they belong all day and never get a conclusive answer.

I think one of the interesting things about these categories is that the characters can move between them. Someone might start out as the Naive hero, and then his experiences leads them into being a Rebel or a Dutiful. And a Rebel when he mellows could become a Dutiful, or a Dutiful might see something that forces them to abandon their former loyalties and allegiences and become a Rebel. The Dutiful soldiers are the ones I can see easily becoming the Wise man for the next hero tale, like Obi-Wan does in Star Wars.

I can sing bad pop songs baaaaaybeeee!

[elvisvf101.livejournal.com]

Frat boys exist because the gene pool has a shallow end. Fortunately, there is chlorine.

As I was getting ready for bed last night, I kept thinking about hero archetypes and which kinds I like and dislike.

Man, my bedtime thoughts seem a lot less significant now...

Anyway, the 3 types, I pretty much agree down the line that these are the three main archtypes.

1. The Reluctant Hero is how I would describe this one. Frodo and Luke definitely fit this type, as might someone like General Cincinatus, who was supposedly the inspiration for Gladiator. Odysseus might also fit here, since he didn't want to leave home. But then, it also depends if you consider him a hero or not. Ancient Greek heroes tended to be very brutal, and thus, somewhat ambiguous to me.

2. The Rebel. I can see why you wouldn't like them. Your description is pretty much spot on. People who like the rebels tend to like drama. But I suspect you're a bit more like me and prefer things simple, or perhaps prefer black and white, pick your metaphor.

3. The Dutiful Soldier. Yeah, for me, Aragorn is pretty much the poster child for this category, and Faramir would make a pretty awesome Vice President for the club. These are two of the more awesome characters from Middle Earth, and one of the things that really resonates about both is a sense of history and legacy. I think I find that people who share some sort of organized religious conviction tend to prefer this archtype since this category is the one with the greatest sense of connection.

So, there's thoughts and comments. As for random death threats...umm....

Beware! My army of highly trained ninja lemmings shall beat you to death with thawed herrings!

Re: I can sing bad pop songs baaaaaybeeee!

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

Normally my bedtime thoughts are more along the lines of "Oh crud, I forgot to shut the blinds", or "I'm too tired to think", so I think this counts as a statistical outlier on the significance of my bedtime thoughts.

As for your death threat: 9/10. I took a point off for having both lemmings and herrings.

Now, on to the meat of your comment.
1. Reluctant hero is a good description for this. I don't think Odysseus would count as much here, but Telemachus would.

2. It's not so much prefering black and white, as it is not liking the personality type that the rebel hero tends to have. Most of them tend to be somewhat cocky or arrogant, and that always throws me out of any sympathy I'd have for the character.

3. Agreed. I actually started thinking about these archetypes to understand why it was that I liked Faramir, Obi-Wan, and Scott Summers better than I did Han Solo or Wolverine.

Tangent

[elvisvf101.livejournal.com]

Since you posted this as I've been rewatching Firefly:

Malcolm Reynolds: Rebel or Dutiful Soldier?

At first blush, I'd very easily pigeonhole him as a Rebel. But the more I watch, the more Badger's contention that he's "Still a Seargeant, still a Soldier," keeps nagging at me. Other quotes to throw the monkey wrench:

Bushwaked - "I was on the losin' side. Still not entirely convinced it was the wrong side."

Shindig - Don't remember it word for word, but the quote while Atherton is down about Great Men, well, pretty good men, eh, he's allright.

The Message - "You and Zoe are reppin' as Stone Killers, but I still remember the ol' Sarge, with his homilies about Glory and Honor."

"Maybe you shoulda listened."

The Train Job - "Seems to me, when a man hears our story, he has a choice to make."

"I don't believe he does."

Thoughts, comments, random death threats that DON'T use lemmings and herrings simultaneously?

Re: Tangent

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

Random Death threat: I will skin you alive and roll you over a colony of fire ants. I will pop out your eyes for billiard balls. I will use your ligaments as strings for an orchestra full of violins, violas, harps, and bass, and I will have them play your favorite songs off-key and at the wrong tempo. Random enough for you?

Mal I'd class as a Dutiful soldier turned Rebel. He's got that attitude underneath, but he's seen too much and been betrayed too often to hold much of a sense of duty to anyone outside of his crew.

Re: Tangent

[elvisvf101.livejournal.com]

*shudders*

Remind me to stay on your good side.

I agree with your classification on Mal. I suppose he's a disillusioned hero. Anyone else fit this? Because it is somewhat compelling. A man who is tortured and lost, and yet something beautiful remains underneath, just waiting for a spark.

It might be one of the reasons I like Mal/Firefly so much. And it is wonderful to see the various characters share his passion in some way, either by love of the ship (River, Inara, Kaylee), love of the Captain (Zoe, Kaylee, Inara), love of the crew or an individual crew member (Wash, Kaylee, Inara, Book, Simon), or love of the unfettered life (Jayne, River, Zoe, Wash, Kaylee, Inara).

[vaudy.livejournal.com]

Excellent break-down. I've never really thought about which one appeals to me more. I admit I have kind of a soft spot for the first, but that's probably cultural conditioning. I think we're kinda pushed to the reluctant heroes and and the anti-hero, rebel types. I usually see the dutiful soldier types as secondary characters; the other two get more of the spotlight from most storytellers. The first has either the undedog or the coming-of-age appeal, depending on how the story's structured, and the second has the redemption appeal, all of which are things we're taught to admire.

In theory, I think the third appeals to me most, too, but I can't think of any examples at the moment. I just got home from a three-hour class, so my brain's a little fried. It occurs to me, however, that the third sounds a little bit like a Hufflepuff.

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

The third does seem sort of Hufflepuff, doesn't it?

I've never really understood the appeal of the rebel, but then, I'm not really a person with rebellious tendencies in the first place. I guess the rebel character acts as a sort of outlet, allows us to vent our frustrations with the system in a safe manner.