(no subject)

[mari4212]

So, natertatersmom on my flist was asking about how we defined feminism. And apparently this has been stewing for me for a while, because I ended up writing a rather hefty comment in response. So I'm re-posting it here, and asking you guys the same question. How do you define feminism? (As always, feel free to disagree, and I'm not going to moderate here because you guys are all reasonable adults, but that being said, do try to be polite.)

My favorite quote on feminism is one I've heard my friend use many times, "Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings."

In practical terms, to me that means that yes, our society is deeply misogynistic, and we need to acknowledge that. It means that we need to understand that it's wrong that the first question asked about a woman who was raped was "what was she wearing/doing?" It means that we need to admit that it is deeply unfair that a woman can put in the same hours at the same job and get paid an average of 30 cents less. It is deeply unfair that a man is still able to have both a family and a job, or to choose to just have a job, and no one thinks twice, whereas if a woman has both people say that she's neglecting her kids for her work, and if she chooses to only have a job, she's regarded as lesser. It's deeply wrong that to call a man a woman, or to imply that he's at all feminine is considered a horrible insult, while you can say that a woman's like a man and it's something inherently praiseworthy. It's wrong that a large subsection of fandom, itself mostly comprised of women, still thinks it's fine to run down every female character as being sluts or bitches or both. It's wrong that violence against women is still so common.

It's wrong that my college posted statistics like, "80% of college men would interfere to stop a rape if they saw one occurring," and they call that good news, instead of being appalled that there's 20% who wouldn't do anything. It's wrong that our society still structures itself in such a way that a woman making it to the top in any profession is unusual. And that any time women point to this rarity, that a large portion of that same society tells them to sit down and shut up because if one woman can make it, then obviously there's no problem. It's wrong that occasionally I get the list of things women are supposed to do to prevent themselves from getting sexually assaulted, and that the burden is on women to change their lifestyles to be "safe", with no expectation that a man should bear some responsibility for his actions. It's wrong that someone calls me a hairy-legged liberal feminist and thinks it's an insult.

It's wrong that those women who are also minorities are stuck under a double burden of prejudice. That in the not too distant past the majority of Native American women on reservations were raped at some point in their lives, and that often the local police would do nothing, and the Native authorities didn't have the power to prosecute the attackers. And it's wrong that the majority of these non-white women feel that the movers and shakers within the feminist movement don't have a clue about their issues.

It's wrong that both men and women suffer under sexist systems. It's wrong that the men who do honestly care oftentimes get painted with the same brush as the real misogynists, because it's just safer for the women to do so. It's wrong that even today a man who wants to do a traditionally feminine role is mocked, or his intentions and sexuality are called into question on it.

It's wrong that I can sit here and type for fifteen minutes and only be scratching the surface of the issue, just because it is that deeply embedded into our culture, and it matters so much for people's lives.

To be a feminist, for me, is to care deeply about these issues, and to feel that the injustices against women matter. It's when you're appalled at hearing about a woman being charged for a rape kit after she's been assaulted, or a woman being pawed at by her boss with the threat to her job if she objects implicit in his actions.

Comments

[elvisvf101.livejournal.com]

*hugs*

Thanks for putting it so well.

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

*hugs back* Your comment earlier was awesome. I meant to comment to it, but I got a bit distracted by this.

[sileri.livejournal.com]

I tend to ignore those statistics because it's been my experience that people just freeze up and watch rather than do anything constructive. You have to give them direct orders, not just a general yell for help, and even then, it's doubtful. Man, woman, it's irrelevant.

I dislike that feminism has gone from being viewed as a human being to being viewed as a womb. I really hate the expectation that I'm supposed to love babies and be all maternal. Nobody expects that of a man. Apparently wanting a career only is selling your fellow women out and trying to be too much like a man. And yet, most men I know have baby rabies. Go figure.

I know we have a long way to go, but it seems we've come just far enough to try to define feminism too narrowly.

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

I know what actually happens in the emergency is anyone's guess, just because you don't know how you'll react till it's over, but I still find it depressing that in a hypothetical situation when you could react ideally, 20% still wouldn't do so. And like I said in the post, I'm more annoyed that my college thought that was good enough to put up on posters over the school as hopeful statistics.

I also dislike single-issue feminism, because, as you said, it tends to turn the focus from being a person to being the bearer of a womb, which absolutely misses the point.

[smammers.livejournal.com]

Good post! I've been a lot more interested in and vocal about these issues lately, between Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin's representations in the media and the fact that I happened to read several books centered on women's rights and sexism recently (The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood, The Taming of the Shrew, as well as several colonial American pieces by Anne Bradstreet and others). I think a big part of it is that people don't want to face it -- like racism, people want to believe that it's something in our country's past rather than face the reality, which is that we have a long way to go.

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's just it. We have come so far, and it's wonderful that we have. But there's so much else that needs to be done.

[natertatersmom.livejournal.com]

I don't think I've told you, but I very much enjoyed your comment as well as this post.

I never defined myself as a "feminist" and didn't think much about it. And growing up where and how I did, I would have told you that it was all a bunch of hoo-ha at best. Seriously. I've always been good with being "the little woman".

Amazing what the internet has done to our world. For me, it has opened my eyes to things I honestly didn't realize. Rape was never anything I thought about because it's not anything I've ever had to deal with nor has anyone I know (as far as I know). And I would have told you that I was sure it was treated with the same severity as other crimes.

And then the blinders came off. And I've heard the stories from women who've had to really live it. And I've read the comments from the men who forever seem to not be able to understand that it really didn't matter what the woman wore or how much she'd had to drink. If a guy in a speedo got plastered and someone attacked and voilated them outside of a club, you can bet your sweet ass that it'd be treated as the crime it really is.

I have so much to learn. So many do. I'm thankful for people like you on my f'list from whom I can learn.

*hugs*

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

*hugs back*

Yeah, I'm crediting fandom for teaching me a great deal of this myself, and for making me more aware of what I still need to learn. I've heard so many people's stories when it comes to dealing with things like sexism and racism. And I'm so glad on the one hand that I've never dealt, personally, with some of them, but horrified that these are still reality for so many other women.

[sirutka.livejournal.com]

In a display of fortuitous timing I was reading a CNN article about women in the Kurdish separatist army talking about the need to end the enslavement of women. "Women grow up enslaved by society. The minute you are born as a girl, society inhibits you," she says. "We've gone to war with that. If I am a woman, I need to be known by the strength of my womanhood, to get respect. Those are my rights. And it was hard for the men to accept this.". (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/10/06/iraq.pkk/index.html)
The first reader comment below shows a perfect example of misogyny, I’ve left the spelling, typos and whatnot as is, I’m not trying to make this man look like an idiot, he’s done it all himself.

"i'm realy tired of women complainting about B.S.!!!, do what god created u to do and be a woman! men and women are design by nature different! a woman will never, and can never b a man, and i aint tryin to b no chic!! there are things a man cant do that a woman can, and vice versa. i dont understand why women so desperately live in denial about these truths!! this is the reason can never stand = with us and we cannot stand = with you as much as you want. Sorry nature made this desicion"

That commentator displayed perfectly what sort of problem women (indeed every non-privileged group now and in history) are facing. The privileged group is largely apathetic towards their plight, and considers any attempt to deviate from the status quo as being unnatural, using terms like God willed it (used 200 years before to justify slavery) and nature made it this way (homosexuality isn’t natural, they say, so it’s okay to hate it). More over the privileged group thinks that any attempt to rock the boat, to draw attention to these sorts of issues is merely childish acting out, that the oppressed should be content with their place in the world. What’s worse is that it isn't just barely literate troglodytes who hold this view, but a majority simply don't care enough to think about the issue.

Paying for rape kits, grr. If my store was robed at gunpoint, the police would not charge my company to check for fingerprints, why the hell would it be okay for society to say "You've been the victim of a vile assault, but our society frowns on people like you so if you want any attempt at justice, pay for it. Best act quickly, the evidence will disappear and the statute of limitations for this sort of thing is ticking."

I'd say more but my thoughts on the matter are too scattershot to write without serious revisions

[vaudy.livejournal.com]

It's perhaps apropos that I was watching Boston Legal tonight, and at the end, The Shat's character called James Spader's character a "girl" as an insult. And they were talking about sexism. Is it funny? Is it tongue-in-cheek, calling attention to the problem? Or is it part of the problem, that we play this stuff up for laughs? Not being a regular watcher of the show, I don't know that I can make a fair judgment on it.

Aside from basically agreeing with everything you said, I think feminism has to embrace choice (and no, this isn't about abortion). Women should have the choice to do what they want--they should be able to choose the life they want. A woman should be able to have a family, or have a career, or have both, and none of those options should be held to be better than any other. I totally respect women who choose to not have children, so why should my desire to have kids be derided, even compared to a disease, as some childfree adherents do? And I'll be the first to admit that for a long time, I thought that women who choose to give up their careers entirely to be stay-at-home mothers were nuts, and dragging us down. I still struggle with it, and have to remind myself that it's just as valid as having a family and still working. (I do have to differentiate between women who choose to stay at home because that's "a woman's place" and those who choose it because that's what really makes them happy--the former often believes that all women should stay at home.)

It goes beyond that, as well. We're judged by what we choose to do with our free time. When the knitting's current popularity boom started, some looked down on it as "women's work." I had a coworker tell me once, "Oh, you're so domestic!" Then some feminists decided to "reclaim" it, and suddenly it was okay. I didn't (and don't) knit because it's women's work (and historically, that's not really true, because not only did men knit in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance, they were the only ones allowed to do so professionally), I knit because it's relaxing and enjoyable, and I generally enjoy making things. Some men knit because it's relaxing and enjoyable, but it's still considered a girly thing to do, and if a straight man picks up the hobby, we all make much of him. But look at a hobby more associated with guys, gaming: women are increasingly coming to gaming, both video and tabletop, but people still think it's weird when a girl plays RPGs or video games. (And I'm not even gonna get into it from the industry side--for either gaming or knitting.) And you know, these things seem trivial; after all, they're just hobbies. Whether women knit or game (or do both at the same time) isn't going get women equal pay. They're really just examples that are close to me, personally. And this choice business isn't really how I define feminism so much as it's just something I think is part of the whole package, and something that's sometimes overlooked.

So, yeah. I love to knit, and I love to cook, and professionally, I'm in a traditionally female-dominated field (and one where we still don't have equal pay--figure that one out). But I also game, and I plan to have a child on my own if I never get married, and if I do get married, I don't want to change my name. What am I, traditional or radical? And does it matter, as long as I believe in justice and equal rights?

[star-x-faery.livejournal.com]

Very eloquently said. I posted something recently that touches upon this topic and was redirected to your post here, and I'm really glad I was.

I agree 100% with everything you've said.