(no subject)

[mari4212]

A few days ago, I saw a link to this article: http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html on cheshire23's lj. And parts of it rang very true for me.

For background on this, last year I was the leader of Medieval Society at UE. A lot of my pings on this article came from experience with these bits in my function as the president of Medieval Society. (It wasn't all just letting Katie go ahead with running everything behind the scenes as secretary.)

The one that came across as the most familiar was social fallacy #1, Ostracizers are Evil. I think we actually did somewhat accept this as a social contract within the club, but part of it was also school policy, that we could not just kick someone out of the club. I spent a good portion of my time as president trying not to strangle someone who drove practically everyone in the club nuts, and there was no legitimate reason to exclude him from club events. Him, we had to accept and take along.

However, there was another guy that we could have banned quite easily, and I'm still not sure why we never did. See, we had a close affiliation with the SCA, and while the majority of SCA members were awesome and fun, this guy? Was sleezy in the extreme. He was a former UE student, and he liked to focus in on one girl in Medieval Society at a time and practically stalk them. There were points where I was offering to pretend to be these girls' girlfriend, if it would give them some way to get him to leave them alone.

And yet, even when dealing with all this, none of us thought to take any steps to exclude him from our events. Technically, we had to invite every SCA member individually to our events, and provide a list of approved names to campus security if they were coming. Alright, he was an alum, but it still wouldn't have been too hard to get him persona non grata status at our events. Even if we didn't want to do that, a word into the ear of two or three of the higher ranking SCA members of the club, telling them what he'd been doing to several of the girls in the club would definitely have been enough to stop him. None of them would have taken our request lightly, or avoided calling him out if we'd ever mentioned there was a problem.

But we never did anything about him. We avoided him, we made sure that the girl he was focusing on at the moment wasn't left alone talking with him, but it never even occurred to us that we were allowed to say that he doesn't belong with us because he made us uncomfortable. We just accepted the fact that we weren't allowed to exclude anyone.

Why do we do this to ourselves?

Comments

[chiefbutz.livejournal.com]

Wow, that article hits home with me. I have seen all 5 of those at UE in one form or another and I could actually list them. I think I might have seen all 5 this year even.

Now I am wondering why we do this to ourselves. I know why I do it, because I have had lots of trouble with people in the past. I guess now I can see why I am the way I am. Anyway, my brain isn't making sense and I will stop now.

Thank you for the link.

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

I knew that if I thought for a moment I could list off incidences of all these behaviors myself when I read the article.

I think a lot of these behaviors, we do because we've had bad experiences before. Most of us in the various geek organizations have been ostracized, have been left out, have had friends betray us in the past. So we go in the opposite direction when we meet up with other groups, and refuse to set boundaries, even the ones necessary to keep ourselves safe or sane.

And really, I think a lot of it can be self-esteem issues as well. How many people in Quidditch Club or Medieval Society had poor self-image issues, or refused to admit that they had a right to set personal boundaries and have other people respect them?

When you don't think your personal limits are worth respecting, you don't stop someone from imposing on you (Fallacies 1 and 3, sometimes 4, there). If you've allowed people to take advantage of you in the past, you start testing your friends because you can't trust them (or because you don't believe that there could be any good reason why they like you). That leads quite easily into Fallacies 2 and 5.

[spiralstairs.livejournal.com]

If there is a crusade against GSF1, I will lead it. I cannot stand putting up with people who make things unpleasant for the group. If I'm not in charge, I'll rail against them until I turn blue. If I'm in charge, I'll kick them out myself. If you're not going to respect your fellow members, you are not entitled to respect. It's not something you just get. I think it's something people are afraid of doing lest they appear selfish or to avoid a fight, but it's better for everybody if problems are taken care of instead of ignored. (That said, I'm still guilty of doing this.)

Thanks for linking to this. It's really interesting (and unfortunately true) reading. If there's a sixth, I'd add 'once a friend, always a friend', where people from your past you knew/were friends with, want to be best friends when you see them in recent circles because it's been awhile and time indicates you must be friends. Even though you never talked much, talked once, or had a massive fight about your problems with them, they will see past this and want to add you on Facebook. And then wonder why you won't add them on Facebook. *headdesk*

[petitecrivan.livejournal.com]

...definitely a carrier of GSF3. Which is probably why I fall into such a dark place when friends hurt me.

Interesting article.

[cheshire23.livejournal.com]

GSF3 is bad news. I used to be the poster girl of GSF3, and completely wrecked my credit rating as a result, because my "friendship before all" beliefs extended to providing money and shelter to multiple people because, well, that's what friends do and they'd do the same for me if I needed it, right...? (Never mind that I wouldn't need it because I had stable employment throughout a period when most of these friends did not seem to have the basics of holding down a job.)

[petitecrivan.livejournal.com]

With me, it's mostly thinking about my friendships constantly. Worrying if this person or that likes me, how they're going to react when this/that happens, what various conversations will end up like. In addition is the willingness to do anything for a friend...being the one who has upset a friend makes me incredibly depressed and willing to do some pretty dark things. But I'm trying to be less like that, because I know it's not healthy.

It's interesting to read all of these, because like everyone else has said, I can definitely point out particular people I know who are carriers of these various social fallacies.

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

I've got bits of several of these myself, especially 3 and 4. I'm working on getting better at 1, because I'm well aware of how necessary setting boundaries and enforcing them is to keeping myself sane and safe.

[sirutka.livejournal.com]

As I was once deeply involved in rpg groups I too have seen mind numblying anti social behavior tolerated, and heard of even worse stories. So yeah as much as I love 'nerd' culture we need to do a better job of demanding adherents to social norms, not all of them mind you, that'd be too boring, but at least the big ones. I think everyone can be guilty of falling for these falicies, but in geekdom it's a sin to call people out on their uncoothness

[cheshire23.livejournal.com]

we need to do a better job of demanding adherents to social norms, not all of them mind you, that'd be too boring, but at least the big ones.

THIS.

All too often, "I like to screw with social conventions!" really means, "I have an inappropriate sense, or no sense at all, of interpersonal boundaries!"

And you know what? That's a BIG PROBLEM.

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Certain boundaries and norms? Are there to keep people safe and not harassed/abused. And my first assumption these days is that someone who won't respect my broader boundaries is also not going to respect it when I tell them no about other things. Cue me running screaming from them.

Of course, I also know a lot of girls who won't leave a group that includes someone who makes them feel unsafe, because their sense of self-worth is so tightly bound up in the fact that this is the first group to accept them. They don't think they have barriers worth respecting. And that just sets up a whole incredible mess of problems to come.

[sirutka.livejournal.com]

Of course, I also know a lot of girls who won't leave a group that includes someone who makes them feel unsafe, because their sense of self-worth is so tightly bound up in the fact that this is the first group to accept them.
And that's what makes this type of circumstance so difficult, it's hard to get the message out that your right to feel safe and comfortable trumps someone else's right to behave however he wants. It's easy for us, as post college adults, to look at our past and think "boy we really could have handled this better", but for them, first time away from home, sometimes the farthest they've ever been from home, it'd be really scary to go against the stream, especially when they're afraid that the squeaky wheel will get ostracized.
Which is why articles like the one that spurned this post, and others (like that boob one, yikes!) need to be brought to people's attention, so that it becomes clear that respecting people's boundaries is not optional.
Sorry this kind of topic really hits my "I want to do Something!" button.

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

I too have seen mind numblying anti social behavior tolerated, and heard of even worse stories. So yeah as much as I love 'nerd' culture we need to do a better job of demanding adherents to social norms, not all of them mind you, that'd be too boring, but at least the big ones.

Exactly. A lot of the major social norms are there for a very good reason. I don't want anyone, say, deciding that my breasts are free for the touching if I go to a con. (http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/83256/)

[cheshire23.livejournal.com]

Erk. Yeah. I don't know if you saw this, which addresses the same topic - but it's a lot of what I was trying to express in my own post, just more in-depth. And the big seething mess that happens when one side is going "You're making me really uncomfortable, here..." and the other is going "Aww, YOU'RE spoiling OUR fun!"

And the SCA is NOT supposed to stand for Society of Consenting Adults. Or, worse, Society for Continual Adolescence.

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

I have seen that, and yeah. Fun should not come at the expense of making someone feel pressured or uncomfortable.

I think I have been very fortunate in my interactions with the SCA. The only guy who was ever skeevy was the one mentioned above, and I know that if we'd ever brought his actions to the attention of any of the other SCA members, they would have been the first to call him out over it. They were very respectful and worked hard to create a positive environment for us.

[cheshire23.livejournal.com]

That's great!

The worst stuff I've run into SCA-wise hasn't been sexual; it's been immature gits recklessly causing safety hazards. (Then again I work Security and Chirurgeon's Point when I'm at war, and I was the baronial chirurgeon for almost six years - that'll kind of make that stuff hard to miss.)

One created such a problem and was so rude about it that we ended up going up the kingdom chain of command to complain, and the guy got a Level II - this was the unwritten part of the reason that my husband has an AoA, because he was willing to bring this git's antics to the attention of people who could Do Something About It before someone actually got hurt.

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

The worst stuff I've run into SCA-wise hasn't been sexual; it's been immature gits recklessly causing safety hazards.

Yikes! Yeah, that's definitely not a good situation.

Our local group has a very prominent member with a mentally disabled daughter who also attends events. I'm not sure if it's just because of her, but safety was a very big concern as far as I was aware of within the group. Everyone was well aware of the safety rules in regards to fighter practice and tournaments, which were the biggies as far as I knew.

[cheshire23.livejournal.com]

The one who got banished was mostly being an unsafe fighter, and insanely rude to the royalty on top of it.

More recently, there's been an issue with an *ahem*...overexuberant dancer. We try to keep the newbies away from him at least when they're first learning steps. :P

[petitecrivan.livejournal.com]

I really wish someone would bring him up to the other SCA members. He's gone after a few of us this semester...and I really don't think it's appropriate. I ignored him, and he seemed to realize I had no interest in being creeped on. But it really is uncomfortable, and I really think it should be dealt with. But I'm not in a position to tell the SCA, and I don't know the *whole* situation. (Not that you are either...)

[sirutka.livejournal.com]

Speaking as someone who has no idea about this person, and having left UE long ago (3 years, already?) my advice would be that everyone else is waiting for someone else to comment. You are probably not alone amongst the women in your group who feel uncomfortable around this, and most socially well adjusted guys feel that it's important to create a comfortable environment for the majority. Confronting him personally might not get you anywhere (he'll just justify his behavior and paint you as the villain) going to a more senior member of the local SCA and phrasing your complaint in a passive manner such as "hey I'm worried that X's behavior might be scaring off new recruits.." you might be pleasantly surprised that everyone else shares your misgivings, but were all afraid that it was just them. On the other hand they might dismiss your concerns, it's the price you have to be willing to pay, but the reward (a much less stressful environment) might be worth it. Life's too short to let your private enjoyment time be overshadowed by cads.
But like I said, I have no idea as to the nature of the situation, so really this might be totally wrong advice.

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

I had to comment to petitecrivan with a screened comment because I listed names, but I did give her a list of people to talk to and a way to approach it. You're mostly on the money. It's just getting a group of the people who know what's been going on together to approach certain people who will listen.

But it's been going on far too long, and most of the girls and a few of the guys in the club who were there last year did know what he's been doing, and can act as supports for petitecrivan, so it won't be just her against him.

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

Oh, and as a follow-up to my earlier comment to you about writing the letter.

If you haven't already written it, feel free to reference me as well. I am very willing to provide confirmation for anything I was present for.

[petitecrivan.livejournal.com]

I mentioned your suggestion to a few people and they seemed unwilling to bring it up with the SCA...they mostly wanted to keep it in the club and deal with it as that. I don't know the whole situation, so I don't know what the best way to deal with it would be, but I trust them to do the right thing.

[mari4212.livejournal.com]

I can understand them wanting to keep things private.

I would point out that until this is addressed in some way, even if it's just members of the club pulling him aside and pointing out that what he's doing is unacceptable if he wants to come to our events, he's going to keep on doing it. And if he does it here, he may very well be doing it elsewhere as well.

He does not seem to be able to read body language or tell when he's going too far. Or, he does and he doesn't care. Either way, he does need to be confronted in some way, as uncomfortable as it is. I'm just very afraid that someday he's going to grab onto one of the more insecure girls in medieval society, and she's not going to be able to get him to back off, or realize that the rest of the club would support her if she tried to avoid him.

Can you talk to the Medieval Society execs and ask them to set up a private intervention with him, telling him that he's doing something inappropriate, if they don't want to go to the SCA members?

Or, if you're willing to go this alone, try a private e-mail to Ragnarr or Accalon, and feel them out about the situation without bringing names into it. I would, but I'm out of the club and I don't recall his SCA name to use it with them. But if you want some backup, I will help you write them an e-mail and will gladly add my name to it.

Part of me is really pushing this because I feel guilty about not doing something about it last year, when he went after several of the other club members. I was too focused on having them avoid him, and not on calling out his bad behavior. I don't want to repeat that mistake now.